Minimum Cage Size on the Forum?
Lizzie
Posts: 70
Last Online:
Dec 6, 2015 22:24:46 GMT
|
Post by Lizzie on Aug 20, 2015 21:29:04 GMT
Hey guys, I was just wondering if a minimum cage size for hamsters was going to be enforced? I know that the over all minimum wherever you go is 360 square inches but I personally feel like that should be raised. It was based off of the availability of a 20 gallon long tank and not because of the welfare of the hamsters. I was just wondering what y'alls opinions were on this .
|
|
Melodie
Posts: 56
Last Online:
Dec 11, 2017 22:25:13 GMT
|
Post by Melodie on Aug 20, 2015 21:48:51 GMT
My personal opinion? I love the size of my 40 breeder (That's 648 square inches for the record.) and can't imagine keeping a hamster in anything smaller than that. On the other hand, its kind of tough to enforce a size limit that may be hard for some to acquire... Maybe the size of the biggest ikea samla, or the biggest bins at walmart/target since those are generally pretty easy to get your hands on The bottom line is that its got to be a size that won't scare people away, but yet still bigger than a twenty gallon. While a twenty gallon tank is better than other pet store cages they still look so cramped to me and why bother when you can get a bin for like half the price that's much bigger? May I suggest that we have a bare minimum "if you can't get anything else" size (maybe 360 is ok for that?) and also a recommended size (say the size of a 40 breeder or bigger). That way, when people ask, or its brought up, we can say something along the lines of "our recommended cage size is 600 square inches or as big as you can get, but please don't ever go any smaller than 360 square inches" We want to make people feel welcome, not scare them away with big numbers, or make them feel bad about their tiny cage.
|
|
Azayles
Posts: 550
Last Online:
Feb 13, 2023 3:21:17 GMT
|
Post by Azayles on Aug 20, 2015 23:30:55 GMT
I was think about this very subject a few days ago, and wondered how to broach it. Like you say, it needs to be a size that's easily attainable so won't dissuade people, but also not be too small that it's unsuitable for hamsters, or too large that, again, it's approaching unobtainableness. Finding that sweet spot is hard I think a different size for minimum and recommended is an excellent idea Perhaps create a thread showing a selection of good bins, tanks and cages? Have the bare minimum as 360 square inches or, "look, you can Pick one of these bigger, much more suitable habitats"
|
|
Melodie
Posts: 56
Last Online:
Dec 11, 2017 22:25:13 GMT
|
Post by Melodie on Aug 21, 2015 2:01:49 GMT
I was think about this very subject a few days ago, and wondered how to broach it. Like you say, it needs to be a size that's easily attainable so won't dissuade people, but also not be too small that it's unsuitable for hamsters, or too large that, again, it's approaching unobtainableness. Finding that sweet spot is hard I think a different size for minimum and recommended is an excellent idea Perhaps create a thread showing a selection of good bins, tanks and cages? Have the bare minimum as 360 square inches or, "look, you can Pick one of these bigger, much more suitable habitats" Hmm that's a great idea actually A thread we can refer to people when asking about cages. Then we can be all like "here just pick one of these!" Maybe I'll make it as a kind of pet (heh) project to give me something to do
|
|
Lizzie
Posts: 70
Last Online:
Dec 6, 2015 22:24:46 GMT
|
Post by Lizzie on Aug 22, 2015 2:19:58 GMT
|
|
Melodie
Posts: 56
Last Online:
Dec 11, 2017 22:25:13 GMT
|
Post by Melodie on Aug 22, 2015 3:36:01 GMT
Yes! I'm Canadian and have no idea what cage options are available over there (aside from the detolf) so I can only offer North American options
|
|
pawlove
Posts: 147
Last Online:
Dec 26, 2015 7:04:11 GMT
|
Post by pawlove on Aug 22, 2015 6:47:07 GMT
Personally, I don't like to get too technical about cage size I don't like having owners measure their cages to make sure it meets a certain number and what. Not sure how to put it, but I'm hoping PH isn't going to be rabid about cages not meeting 360 sq in size. If you ask me, I think all we need is just photos of the cage and the animal in it. If a new owner ask if their cage is big enough, just let them post a pic, and when we see the cage can contain all the needed supplies and provide the animal enough space to move around, it's good. No need for numbers. If a new owner ask what cage they should go with for their future hamster, maybe just tell them 20 gallon long is good size (probably bigger for Syrian) or you can go bigger. I could also argue that enrichments can significantly improves the quality of life over cage-size. So, if someone kept a hamster in a 20 gallon long with lot's of toys, levels, tunnels, and burrowing area, and the other kept one in 40 gal with only a wheel, a hidey, and a thin layer of bedding, I'd say the hamster in the 20 gal is happier. Another thing to keep in mind if PH is going to be an international forum, that some people in certain countries could be having a hard time to get a decent sized cage. I could never have a syrian because the biggest bin I have here is only slightly above 20 gal size, and tanks are ridiculously heavy and expensive since they are designed for fishes. They are hard to find too! My point is... I just don't want PH people to jump on new members for having a tiny cage and assuming they are cruel... some people just don't know better, and even more so when they don't come from Europe/US/UK, some countries are terribly lacking in pet welfare and it's lucky if they even want to join an international forum, you know? That means they are trying to improve their pet care standards beyond what their countries have. You wouldn't want to scare them by enforcing numbers on them. I admit it was scary when I joined HH before... imagine. Everyone else around me kept hamsters in desktops crittertrail and I was so proud to keep my hammies in a crittertrail that doesn't fit on desk anymore, without knowing it's smaller than 20 gal. And when I know the minimum, I frantically searched for a bin that fit the size, and only they largest one I found could be 'barely acceptable'. I was so scared if I hadn't find the bin, I will be told off that I can't provide a good home for my hammies and better off without hamsters at all. Sorry to ramble on and if I sound like a preach, but I hope PH will be much more open minded about cage size and welfare especially to newbies who are still learning. I think what matters is that the owner loved their hamsters and try to give them the best, even if in some eyes it doesn't look adequate. As they get more involved with the forum, they'll learn what can be better for their hamsters and see things that were unable to before, and constantly improves. I don't think they should be told to blindly follow a certain number to actually be good owners. They should see and learn for themselves, and PH should be helping to guide them. Just remember some people have different backgrounds from us. And I probably sound like a hypocrite, since I was doing what I said above when I was in HH..... all I can say that I've been thinking about it a lot and I changed my views a lot. Especially about hamster cage sizes and food percentages and what not.
|
|
Melodie
Posts: 56
Last Online:
Dec 11, 2017 22:25:13 GMT
|
Post by Melodie on Aug 22, 2015 18:39:27 GMT
Personally, I don't like to get too technical about cage size I don't like having owners measure their cages to make sure it meets a certain number and what. Not sure how to put it, but I'm hoping PH isn't going to be rabid about cages not meeting 360 sq in size. If you ask me, I think all we need is just photos of the cage and the animal in it. If a new owner ask if their cage is big enough, just let them post a pic, and when we see the cage can contain all the needed supplies and provide the animal enough space to move around, it's good. No need for numbers. If a new owner ask what cage they should go with for their future hamster, maybe just tell them 20 gallon long is good size (probably bigger for Syrian) or you can go bigger. I could also argue that enrichments can significantly improves the quality of life over cage-size. So, if someone kept a hamster in a 20 gallon long with lot's of toys, levels, tunnels, and burrowing area, and the other kept one in 40 gal with only a wheel, a hidey, and a thin layer of bedding, I'd say the hamster in the 20 gal is happier. Another thing to keep in mind if PH is going to be an international forum, that some people in certain countries could be having a hard time to get a decent sized cage. I could never have a syrian because the biggest bin I have here is only slightly above 20 gal size, and tanks are ridiculously heavy and expensive since they are designed for fishes. They are hard to find too! My point is... I just don't want PH people to jump on new members for having a tiny cage and assuming they are cruel... some people just don't know better, and even more so when they don't come from Europe/US/UK, some countries are terribly lacking in pet welfare and it's lucky if they even want to join an international forum, you know? That means they are trying to improve their pet care standards beyond what their countries have. You wouldn't want to scare them by enforcing numbers on them. I admit it was scary when I joined HH before... imagine. Everyone else around me kept hamsters in desktops crittertrail and I was so proud to keep my hammies in a crittertrail that doesn't fit on desk anymore, without knowing it's smaller than 20 gal. And when I know the minimum, I frantically searched for a bin that fit the size, and only they largest one I found could be 'barely acceptable'. I was so scared if I hadn't find the bin, I will be told off that I can't provide a good home for my hammies and better off without hamsters at all. Sorry to ramble on and if I sound like a preach, but I hope PH will be much more open minded about cage size and welfare especially to newbies who are still learning. I think what matters is that the owner loved their hamsters and try to give them the best, even if in some eyes it doesn't look adequate. As they get more involved with the forum, they'll learn what can be better for their hamsters and see things that were unable to before, and constantly improves. I don't think they should be told to blindly follow a certain number to actually be good owners. They should see and learn for themselves, and PH should be helping to guide them. Just remember some people have different backgrounds from us. And I probably sound like a hypocrite, since I was doing what I said above when I was in HH..... all I can say that I've been thinking about it a lot and I changed my views a lot. Especially about hamster cage sizes and food percentages and what not. Hmm okay, so what your saying is that we should ditch numbers all together and just stick with the rule of "the bigger the better, or as much space as you can afford/obtain". That could work perhaps What an interesting topic we have here! I think we all agree that its irresponsible to bring a hamster (or any pet) into a situation where you can't provide for its basic needs.. aka proper sized cage, safe bedding, wheel, good diet. However, sometimes its hard to tell if a persons care isn't going to be adequate or if we're just being overly judgmental (stuck up perhaps?) about what we think is fair to said hamster. I guess that's why we feel the need to have a minimum cage size... so we can easily tell if that person's hamster is going to be ok. As it stands, the only thing we (the people on this forum specifically) have to back up our cage size minimums is our experience and what we find makes our hams happy. So yes, we could absolutely stick with a cage size recommendation of "the bigger the better" but it still feels like we need to have a baseline unacceptable "probably hold off on the ham until you can get a big enough cage" size. The last thing we want to do is scare anyone off, but there has got to be point at which a cage is just not big enough to house a hamster even if all we can tell people is that pet store cages (habitrail, crittertrail, rotostack and all those other ones) are not suitable for the animals they are marketed towards. We have got to have something that we all agree on to tell people when they ask us these things or show us their cages. The problem is deciding on what's fair which is tough when we would love to see everyone with 40 breeders or bigger! Creating an article with all of the cage options is going to be a good start though, and something we can link to when questions arise
|
|
pawlove
Posts: 147
Last Online:
Dec 26, 2015 7:04:11 GMT
|
Post by pawlove on Aug 22, 2015 18:54:01 GMT
I do think the cage examples thread will be useful It gives new owners a better idea of how their cages should look like, rather than just giving them numbers. If they ever want to know what exactly to buy, we can always give recommendations like 40 gal, samla bin, etc Better than telling them to look for something bigger than [insert numbers] sq inches.
|
|
Lizzie
Posts: 70
Last Online:
Dec 6, 2015 22:24:46 GMT
|
Post by Lizzie on Aug 22, 2015 19:00:22 GMT
I do think the cage examples thread will be useful It gives new owners a better idea of how their cages should look like, rather than just giving them numbers. If they ever want to know what exactly to buy, we can always give recommendations like 40 gal, samla bin, etc Better than telling them to look for something bigger than [insert numbers] sq inches. I agree but I do think that 360 sq in should be a bare minimum, as you can get the necessities in for a dwarf but its not a very enriching life for them.
|
|
|